Contrast John's picture of a loving God with the Torah's picture of a God who demanded perfect obedience to some 613 laws in the Torah, and who wanted to kill Moses because Moses had not performed circumcision on his son by the eighth day. Or the God of Noah who wanted to: "wipe mankind, who I have created, from the face of the earth." And He did precisely that, while saving only Noah and family.
Or the God of Abraham who took time do have a dialog with Abraham first before wiping out the towns of Sodom and Gomorrah.
At the same time, I'm so impressed by the Jews who did not know the God of John. But yet, were incredibly devoted and faithful worshippers of the God of Abraham, Moses, Jacob and Issac. And there was David who was so intimate with God he wrote so many psalms praising God for his loving kindness, mercy and blessings. And the Jews today continue to worship the God of Abraham, Moses, Jacob and Issac, while rejecting the God who sent his son Jesus.
Then there is the problem of differences in the old and new testaments such as: (1) the principle of shadow (OT) and reality (NT); (2) old covenant (OT) replaced by new covenant (OT and NT); and (3) the Law of Moses at Mount Sinai (OT) and the Law of Christ at Mount of Olives (NT)? How do those major shifts fit with the concept of the God who never changes?
Based on my reading, then, I'm no longer so sure that God does not change. And that means, I have some questions about that assertion.
- Is God really the same God in both old testament and new testaments? Is it true that God never changes?
- Does God choose to reveal different parts of Himself to different people at different times? How and why?
- What do we gain or lose by accepting or rejecting the traditional view that God does not change?
- Why does the God of the old testament continue to be more attractive to the Jews than to many Christians?
- Does God learn? Is it possible to reconcile the concept of an all knowing God with the concept of a God who learns more about people he created, and changes the way he relates to us as he "learns" more?
- Does God continue to be pleased with the worship of the Jews today, even after many Jewish leaders rejected his only begotten son?
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23 comments:
The issue of compatibility between the God of the OT and the God of the NT is among the most provocative that we STRETCHers have dealt with and certainly among the most provocative that faced the Christian movement in the first and second centuries.
The Marcionites, a formidable body within early Christianity, beleived in Christ as the savior and Paul as his chief apostle but rejected the Hebrew Bible and Yahweh. Marcionites beleived that the wrathful Hebrew God was a separate and lower entity than the all forgiving God of the NT.
While I'm not ready to subscribe to Marcion beleifs, I've long subscribed to the point-of-view that God learns.
I frankly beleive that the concept of Free Will consisered within the context of the struggle between good and evil, was ploughing new ground for the perfect being living in a perfecly harmonious universe where laws of physics, science and numbers create perfect predictablity and order.
This hostile little planent in rebelion that had fallen into the hands of his adversary Lucifer, presented challenges so great that, eventually he had to send his hand-picked emmisary to get in touch with and understand these mortal and flawed beings.
He loved them but couldn't quite figure them out. Only through Christ's human experience for 30 years was God able to gain the insight into mankind and able to craft a plan to unravel the mess on earth.
Read Isaiah and hear God's frustration expressed about how everything he does in reaching out to his people ultimately meets with rejection. Things just weren't working out.
Yes a supreme being can learn from his mistakes. After all,do you think that if God was going to do it over, he'd make the pit of an Avacado so big?
Always Doubtful
Never considered that an omniscient God made mistakes. Yes, the incarnate God / man Christ learned stuff [Hebrews 5:8], but the pre-incarnate? Not sure vintage Jewish prophetic wailing and the size of an avacado pit is gonna convince me otherwise...maybe the durian fruit would convince me though...it smells SO bad!!!
Mike:
How's this one?
For those who subscribe to the Great Controversy explanation, it would seem logical that just as a good lawyer makes his case, God would demonstrate that regardless of how God approaches or relates to man within the grasp of a sinful and fallen world, they cannot manage to live successfully.
Therefore the actions of God in the Old Testament demonstrates the full range of behaviors toward his people.
If indeed 1/3 of the heavenly host had sufficient doubt toward God to cast their lot with Lucifer, some degree of doubt had to exist with others even though they remained loyal.
God had to prepare his case and demonstrate in a very comprehensive manner that man-on-earth could not extricate himself from destructive behavior regardless of how he was treated by God.
Only the atonement of God's Lamb would suffice.
I personally like the EVEN GOD CAN LEARN perspective.
Lot's of theories that cannot be fully proven.
JHH
To the question of does God learn?
My sense is "Yes." It seems there are plenty of Bible examples that show learning experiences of God or Jesus.
First, the comments in the book of Hebrews of Jesus's temptation in the wilderness sure points that way. In my view, why would a divine God need to take on human form except to learn more about the life of humans.
"Therefore, he had to be made like his brethren in all things, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in all things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For since he himself was tempted in that which he suffered, he is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted." -- Hebrews 2:17-18 (NASV)
"For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who was tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace to help in time of need." -- Hebrews 4:15-16
Second, the striking difference between the old covenant (Mosaic)in Exodus 19, and the new covenant in Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8-9 are, to me, examples of God having learned.
Third, the fact that God seems to be taken by surprise at man's wickedness during Noah's time seems like another learning point. Genesis 6 describes a God who said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I created from the face of the earth, for I am grieved that I have made them. But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord."
I'm not sure why we would not want to consider the idea of a God who learns about the people he created. I would think we would find it a most attractive attribute of God.
I have been enjoying all the postings.
But I have a question. How can God be omnipotent and all know and learn? If one is all knowning how could there be a need to learn. Thoses positons, God is all knowning and learns, are inconsistent. So which is it?
ld
Hey Anonymous, Thanks for your post. I hear your point. And it is a good one.
However, I don't think it is incompatible to believe in an all knowing and all powerful God with a God who "learns" or adapts to his created beings. So let me challenge the premise that it is inconsistent.
Also, I'd like the chance to develop the case from the Bible, but will need some time this week to review some themes--not proof texts--but Bible stories to see if we can reconcile an omniscient and omnipotent God with a God who responds to his created beings based on new information. That is what I define as a learning experience for God.
The wild card issue for me has to do with how we define what we mean by "all knowing and all powerful," and what we mean by man's free will which we are free to exercise. Pretty messy stuff.
We also need to define what we mean by a God who learns or changes his mind, or changes course, based on new information or prayers or pleas or negotiations from man. Of course I'm NOT saying God makes mistakes. Absolutely not. But I do believe God is interested in information from us about what is important although Christ says that he alread knows our needs before we even ask.
But there are other stories that, I believe, support the theory of a God who learns. Let's see if I can support my point from the Bible, with texts in appropriate context later this week.
If outside of Christ’s humanity [so we’re not talking Christ learning to breast feed, walk, talk, or write] God's "learning" results [as it so often does these days in Protestant dispensational theology] in Christians concluding that God learned to save people by grace instead of law [which is inconsistent with Hebrews 11 and a specific example of why I have difficulty reconciling learning and omniscience], I think we've messed it up.
FWIW, I think it's more likely that our understanding of how God has always saved everyone by grace change. Even in all the covenants. And that because people [especially those in Bible times] believed God is sovereign, they write in such a way that sounds like God is learning. And THAT is what is reflected in the language of writers describing it. So I'm not sure how stories that imply otherwise could change this for me. But I look forward to seeing if they can!!!
Hello Bloggers! Are you enjoying vacation?
To earlier bloggersations on the question: “Can God learn?
Despite our best efforts, it is clear to me that we can’t even begin to comprehend the nature of God because of the limitations of our minds. Nor can we describe God accurately because of the limitations of our language.
The problem is when we use absolutes to describe God, we may find such absolutes to be inconsistent with other absolutes. What then?
For example, we generally agree that God is all powerful, all knowing, and present everywhere. Right?
But here’s the problem.
If we claim God knows everything and can’t learn, then logically, he can’t be all powerful.
Hmmmmm...Solutions anyone?
To point of Anonymous if an all knowing God has a "need" to learn....
I agree. I don't think an Omniscient God has a need to learn, but I believe he can CHOOSE to learn because he is Omnipotent.
Good morning Stretchers,
I enjoy all the thoughts you Stretchers give, and normally I am quiet on my end, but today I am going out of my comfort zone to address my thoughts on Life is Goods latest question.
The last 12 months have been terrific for me, reading and thinking thoughts that were foreign to me as I was raised. This point about can God learn really had me thinking so here it goes...
Is God all knowing? I believe so. Does God know what we are thinking? I believe so. Does God give us the ability to make choices? I believe so. Does God know what our choices will be? I don't think so.
If God knows what we will do, knows what our choices will be, then isn't this pre-destination? And I do not think we are pre-destined. If God knows all we are going to do, then are we just actors in God's play / plan on the stage called Earth?
God gave humans the ability to choose, and Eve and then Adam chose to disobey God and sin. After many generations, the sin got so bad, God decided to destroy the sinners and start over, hence the flood. But guess what, us humans still didn't learn, and sinning was winning again.
"Why are these people choosing sin when I give them the choice?" God seemed to be thinking. Also, God loved the people on Earth so much, He came up with another plan to save as many people on Earth who truely want to be saved - He sent His son to Earth to try to learn about humans and why they do certain things. Jesus did live a perfect life, but he was also tempted - the difference is since he was the son of God, he was chose to withstand sin. Now, Jesus understands what we humans are going through and possibly enlighten God as to our living and temptations. God truely does love the people on Earth - he just couldn't understand us.
I believe God has learned, and Jesus was not only a great communicator with us, but also with God.
God and Jesus give us choices, as there are evil influences there are also divine influences on our choices, but the choice is up to each of us. I believe God knows our minds, but not our choices. He knows the consequences of our choices, but we have the final say.
I think God has learned about human nature, and His son Jesus was able to explain some about us humans. Yes, I think God has learned.
Cowboy
It is possible that God doesn't need to learn because he is all knowning. Doesn't mean he couldn't; he doesn't have to. I can crawl but do not need to since I can walk, run, etc.
Cowboy, I am not sure God doesn't know what are choices will be. They are still our choices. I am not sure that is pre-destination. Something could happpen to influence our choices.
I still think if God is all knowning he doesn't need to learn and would know our choices. If he needs to learn, or doesn't know our choices, He is not all knowning. I don't think you can have it both ways.
ld
Ok. Okay. Posts are getting good here, but I may be missing something. Before we spend a lot of energy on whether God is all knowing or all powerful or everywhere, I’d like to know which are the foundations of these doctrines? And where did these doctrines come from in Jewish writings? And early Christian writing? Not sure we adopted these from Paul or Jesus or Moses. And how did these doctrines qualify to be canonized?
As said in earlier posts, if God can't learn, then he is not all powerful. Take the other way. If God can learn, he is not all-knowing. Interesting challenges of absolute statements that come from our desire to declare God in absolutes.
I may be missing something here, but I don't think there are logical solutions to these omni-contradictions we’ve created. Which means, that because all-knowing and all-powerful doctrines conflict, they can't co-exist.
I wonder if you all are asking the right questions. For me, the question is: Does God change him mind? There are many Scriptural examples, some already mentioned here and elsewhere, that God changes his mind, especially as he reacts to actions. Which means God changed his mind based on unforeseen information, or surprising exercise of free will, or actions that surprised him. Like in Exodus when God was “about to kill Moses” for disobeying God by not circumcising his son, but was fortunately saved by his wife who cut her son’s foreskin and placed it on Moses feet. “So, the Lord let him alone.” To me, and fortunately for Moses, this story challenges the doctrine of God’s omniscience.
In response to the question of whether the God of Moses is the same as the God of John…
Confession: I no longer I see a difference between a God of the Old and New Testaments the way I used to. Previously, I saw two conflicting personalities of God that I could not reconcile. But my views were skewed.
Previously, I’d be puzzled, even angry, that God of Israel would demonstrate his wrath to wipe out Noah’s world, burn out whole populations in Sodom and Gomorrah, order complete genocide in Canaan, and want to kill all the Israelites, his chosen people! No wonder natural disasters would often be legally described as “acts of God.” I had a hard time relating to this OT view of God, who focused his wrath on entire groups of people.
Collective guilt, it seemed.
Conversely, I’d be moved by the compassion of the God of NT who sacrificed his son to save us in our most sinful and unrighteous conditions as Paul says. And who would welcome sinners to sit with Christ at his right hand. I really liked this NT God who focused his mercy and grace on the world.
Collective grace, it is.
What's more, it dawned on me how OT concepts were formed early in my childhood, say, before high school. I also realized that the NT concepts that slowly emerged on my fogged radar when I discovered the gospel around 50 years into my childhood never really challenged and changed the OT view. Hence the conflicting views.
Recently, I was touched that the God of Cain engaged in dialog with Cain and showed him mercy. I was facinated how the God of Abraham called him out of a pagan background, declared him righteous simply for his belief that God would keep his promises, even after Abraham’s faith and obedience ebbed and flowed. And there is the God of David, who loved David, and whom David loved deeply.
I see my biases more clearly now. And so I see my previous conclusions as flawed because they were based on insufficient, inaccurate and biased reasoning on snapshots. I had focused on small numbers of data points or stories that stuck with me, and failed to look for the broader historical sweep and a bigger picture of how God interacts with man.
Now, I’ve become more conscious of how I my biases affect my data points and questions. Then how they attach to my assumptions and explorations, and ultimately, conclusions.
Here are other evolving thoughts on this question:
1. The OT v. NT periods are not comparable for this question. I assume the OT covers a period of say 4,000 years of life, and OT scriptures were written somewhere between 2000 BC to 164 BC. I also assume that NT writings cover a period of say 96 years, and were written between 50 AD to 96 AD, and cover mainly 3 years in terms of Christ’s ministry and his revelation of God.
2. The Jews in the NT, including Christ, his disciples, apostles, Paul only knew and worshipped Jehovah. They testified about, loved and worshipped him and did not seem conscious of contradictions in Yaweh’s character between the times of Adam and Paul.
3. Progressive revelation notwithstanding, as I re-read the previous examples of how God flooded the world of sinners with his wrath in ways I still can’t understand, I now realize that neither can I understand how God flooded the world of sinners with his grace in both periods.
Consequently, I'm convinced that God of Moses is the same as the God of John and Paul. And that God's character is the same in both periods.
Good stuff Life Is Good!!! Perhaps one day us stretchers will tackle "Who's Afraid of the Old Testament God?" by Alden Thompson. Rachel says I need to read that.
I think God "responding" instead of learning makes more sense to me in light of Romans 8:28 that God "foreknew" those He "predestined." Allows God to foreknow and respond without contradicting our free will. Sorry Cowboy, I'm with ld on this one!!! Happy 4th!!!
And always doubtful, I DO think the great controversy theme is a helpful addition to understanding the bible's bigger picture. WTG!!!
Oops, I meant Romans 8:29
Happy 4th PM and Stretchers. And always great to see PM jump in on some bloggersations.
Now to the issue of whether God learns...
While God who responds (rather than learns) may make more sense to us given the need for us to say God is omniscient, we are still left with the "contradiction of omnis" referenced above: If we claim God is omnipotent-all powerful and can do anything, then we are forced to conclude that he can learn. But if we claim God is all knowing and his omniscience keeps him from learning, then we are left with conclusion that he is not omnipotent because he can't learn.
One solution offered is that while an omniscient God does not need to learn, he certainly can choose to learn because he is omnipotent.
So help me out here Stretchers because the consequent logical trap from the claims about God above is that God can't be both omnipotent and omniscient at the same time.
I suppose God could choose to learn because he is omnipotent, but in my head, I don't believe if he doesn't it forces me to conclude that God is not omnipotent. His ways are above my ways. There's lots of things about God that contradict logic [the Trinity or heaven for example]. Maybe a third option will embrace mystery instead of clarity leaving [as I think Romans 8:29 implies] both his foreknowledge and omnipotence side by side.
Hello all. I will jump in for a bit. I do not accept the validity of the statement that if God is all powerful he has the ability to learn, but that his omniscience precludes his ability to learn, thus negating his omnipotence. How can absolute knowledge negate absolute power? How is absolute power negated when there is no need to learn? When there is no need to learn, there is no need for the power to learn.
If I was a good poker player and I won all the chips at the table. I would not then be able to win more chips. Does that negate my power or ability as a poker player? Of course not. When we speak of the absolute knowledge of God we assume that an infinite God created a hugely complex, sometimes incomprehensible ( to us), and incredible universe and whatever may be beyond. Yet, it is still finite. And if it is finite, an infinite God can completely understand what he created. To mix the metaphor, God has all the poker chips in the knowledge of his creation.
The confusing part seems to come with the fact that he created beings with free will that jumble up outcomes and cause mathematicians to come up with complexity theories and statistics and all that rot. How do we claim God is all-knowing when we have outcomes that have yet to be determined because God did give free will? Especially so, since He does change His mind in relating to people and situations.
I have no problem with that and did not become a predestinationalist to achieve that comfort. If we look down at a line on paper and imagine a 2D being in the middle of that line. We could see him go to the right or to the left. We know where the ends of the line are while he can't see them. We know how close he comes to the end before he turns back. He has no idea but we do because we live outside 2D. God lives outside 3D space and time. He knows the end from the beginning. He knows what my future actions will be without removing from me the free will to do them except as He, in His providence, seeks to influence me out of His love for me. His knowledge of the future does not preclude our collective free will, the inexorable working of the natural laws he created, and how it all works together to created the future He has knowledge of.
God honors us by relating to us, and may change His original intent towards how he will act with us because he loves us and knows that relating to us and interacting with us is part of how His love manifests.
Hey some great blogging here. Good stuff! I want to make sure I understand the points above.
Which part of the above statement don’t you accept as valid: (1) That if God is omnipotent, he can do anything which includes learning? Or (2) that God’s omnipotence (giving him ability to learn) negates his omniscience?
I especially like the solution "God honors us by relating to us, and may change his original intent...."
Perhaps the better question is: How is the doctrine of God’s omniscience affected by cases in which God changed his mind after announcing his decision? And in those cases, does God's omniscience enable him to see that he himself will change his mind?
Let’s apply this question to several stories (one at a time) and see where it takes us.
First, here is the story of Hezekiah. Isaiah 38 (Today's New International Version)
Hezekiah's Illness
1 In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, "This is what the LORD says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover." 2 Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the LORD, 3 "Remember, LORD, how I have walked before you faithfully and with wholehearted devotion and have done what is good in your eyes." And Hezekiah wept bitterly. 4 Then the word of the LORD came to Isaiah: 5 "Go and tell Hezekiah, 'This is what the LORD, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will add fifteen years to your life. 6 And I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria. I will defend this city. 7 " 'This is the LORD's sign to you that the LORD will do what he has promised: 8 I will make the shadow cast by the sun go back the ten steps it has gone down on the stairway of Ahaz.' " So the sunlight went back the ten steps it had gone down.
This story is mentioned three times in the Bible, so I assume it has an important lesson for us. With our discussion in mind, and using the text above…I'd love to hear your thoughts on...
1. Did God’s omniscience enable him to see that Hezekiah would die and not recover?
2. Was it God’s will for Hezekiah to die and not recover?
3. Why did God tell Hezekiah (through Isaiah) that he would die?
4.When Hezekiah reminded God of his good works, was that new information to God who is all knowing?
5.When God said he had heard Hezekiah’s prayer (Hezekiah did not appear to ask God for more life, he just asked him to remember his good works) and gave him 15 more years of life, did God’s omniscience enable him to see that God himself would change his mind?
6.Where are the Biblical passages on which the doctrine of God’s omniscience are based, and who articulated the doctrine? Do we go to Nicea again?
Next, I'd like your thoughts on how to apply our evolving understanding of God's (1) omniscience, (2) omnipotence, (3)his will, (4) Moses intercession and (5) Israel's free will to the powerful story of how Moses interceded for Israel...similar to the amazing way Abraham interceded with God on behalf of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Exodus 32:7-14 (Amplified Bible)
7The Lord said to Moses, Go down, for your people, whom you brought out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves; 8They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them; they have made them a molten calf and have worshiped it and sacrificed to it, and said, These are your gods, O Israel, that brought you up out of the land of Egypt! 9And the Lord said to Moses, I have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiff-necked people; 10Now therefore let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and that I may destroy them; but I will make of you a great nation. 11But Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why does Your wrath blaze hot against Your people, whom You have brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12Why should the Egyptians say, For evil He brought them forth, to slay them in the mountains and consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and change Your mind concerning this evil against Your people. 13[Earnestly] remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self and said to them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give to your seed, and they shall inherit it forever. 14Then the Lord turned from the evil which He had thought to do to His people.
1. Looking at the passage above...Did God’s omniscience enable him to foreknow Israel would turn against him, and that he himself would ask to be left alone so he could destroy Israel, and that God himself would be talked out of it by Moses intercession?
2. Was God surprised by Israel's collective free will to disobey God? Was Moses's intercession and reasoning with God about "new" information for God to consider? Was God learning more about his stiff-necked people here through Moses?
Hey PM...Great idea regarding Thompson's book for Stretchers. Check out the book posted on the right margin...
http://stretchcafe.blogspot.com
All:
So many thoughts and so little space. Here's my first blush response to this mornings barrage of provocative perspectives.
Yes God learns. In my mind,nothing makes sense without the "simple understanding that God learns and by learning can change His mind"
From an earthly perspective it would seem that God is all knowing and all powerful, but how about within a Universal-Heavenly-Kingdom of divine-beings perspective???
Point 1. Would God create Lucifer had HE known that Lucifer would introduce sin and lead a heavenly rebelion that when played out would result in inconcieveable suffering, anquish, atrosity, injustice and desperation for fallen mankind that had fallen because God deliberately created Lucifer???
If God created Lucifer knowing that he would introduce such darkness to the Perfect Heavenly Kingdom why would he do it at all?
Out of boredum...for the fun of it?
Why would God destroy all mankind by flood because he was sorry that he had created man in the first place, if he was fully aware all along of all that which man would do under the influence of the Dark Prince???
Point 2. Did God lie to Hezikiah by telling him that he would not recover? Is God capable of lying or deception?
Did God change his mind as Divinely inspired Scripture suggests? If He did, does that not seem to suggest that He learns?
When God extends the offer "come let us reason together", is that a true offer of intimate sharing or is it condescending and meaningless?
If God wants us to reason with Him does that not imply that what we have something to offer...that our perspective as one of His fallen children has value to Him and that we have "standing" with Him?
Always Doubtful
Fides Quarans Intellectum
(Faith Seeking Understanding.
It occurs to me that some of these examples of God supposably changing his mind or learning are the results of people changing there behavior and therefore the results. For example, in Jonah the Ninevehites change their behavior so they were not destroyed as Jonah had predicated. There are many examples of people, or a groups of people, repenting and changing their behavior and being saved making it look like some prophet got it wrong or God changed His mind when in reality we have a predictable pattern. Repent and be saved.
ld
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