There is a great difference between moralism and the gospel. We must remember that Christ came first not to make bad people good but to make dead people live. -- Tullian Tchividjian quoting Mike Horton's "Christless Christianity."Preach the gospel at all times. When necessary use words! -- Often attributed to Francis of Assisi, who, says Mark Galli in "Francis of Assisi and His World" never said it!
I'm accepted, therefore I obey. In every other religion the indicative flows from the imperative. Which means, ‘because I do, therefore I am… because I do this, therefore I’m a child of God.’ But only in Christianity does the imperative flow from the indicative. ‘Because I am in Christ all these things, therefore I obey.’ Exactly the opposite. -- Tim Keller, Led by the Spirit
This is the paradox of grace. He who insists he is right will be pronounced wrong, while he who admits he is wrong will be declared right. The righteousness of God is only given to those who stand in the sinners place. -- Stanley Voke, Personal Revival
He who is alone with his sins is utterly alone. It may be that Christians, not withstanding corporate worship, common prayer, and all their fellowship in service, may still be left to their loneliness. The final breakthrough to fellowship does not occur because, though they have fellowship with one another as believers and as devout people, they do not have fellowship as the undevout, as sinners.
The pious fellowship permits no one to be a sinner. So everyone must conceal his sin from himself and from their fellowship. We dare not be sinners. Many Christians are unthinkably horrified when a real sinner is suddenly discovered among the righteous. So we remain alone with our sin, living in lies and hypocrisy. The fact is that we are sinners! --Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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17 comments:
"Speak the gospel—use deeds when necessary; use words always." is better, says Mark Galli in Christianity Today.
Here's another...
"If anyone says that the grace of God can be conferred as a result of human prayer, but that it is not grace itself which makes us pray to God, he contradicts the prophet Isaiah, or the Apostle who says the same thing, "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me" (Rom 10:20, quoting Isa. 65:1). -- Council of Orange, AD 529, Canon 3.
"Ingratitude to man is ingratitude to the Divine."
--- Shmuel HaNagid
I like this one!
“…a Christian may be comforted, first of all, in respect of his former justification. His new sin does not cancel his former pardon, though it will interrupt and disturb his present peace and comfort from it. And secondly, he may be comforted in this, that there is mercy enough in God to cover all his sins, grace enough in Christ to cure this fresh sin. And further, in this he is to find comfort, that God does not suffer him to live in sin, but that He has revealed his sin to him, humbled him for it, and brought him back to Christ in whom he may renew his peace and regain his sense of comfort.”
Samuel Bolton, The True Bounds of Christian Freedom
All:
“No philosopher, from Thales to Aristotle and no theologian from the Apostle Paul to Kirkigard recognizes perfection as achievable but they do recognize that seeking perfection is essential to the ergon (function) of man.”
This statement was written in the margin of a book on The Greek Philosophers many years ago by a young man who was always trying to “figure it out”. I can tell you with an authorative voice that he didn’t figure it out then and he hasn’t figured it out yet.
Regardless, however, the statement should provoke some thought regarding a fundamental issue that may or may not resonate with some of my fellow STRETCHers. That fundamental issue baited by the statement, has to do with whether man is by nature corrupt and evil or by nature seeking reconciliation with his creator and thereby seeking a return to oneness with God.
I subscribe to the later and therefore have adopted a point-of-view regarding my Christianity. My Christianity is based upon a covenant with God written on my heart moving me toward subscription to Seneca’s declaration that “I don’t obey God, I agree with Him.” This point of view, carried to its logical end, would conclude that the satisfaction of growing toward oneness with God is the ultimate gift to be sought… not salvation/eternal life.
This triggers the impertinent question: Are you a Christian because you wish to follow the teachings of Christ and recognize that obedience to God’s law is to align yourself with the harmony and fullness of the natural benefits of following God’s natural laws of human behavior? Or are you a Christian because you want the pay-off of eternal life. If there was no eternal life and all there was, was the “peace that passeth understanding” of a Christian life; would you still be a Christian? Is the motive fear of judgment or the harmonious alignment with our Father/Creator?
If one’s Christianity is merely a sterile-contract agreement committing oneself to obedience so as to gain eternal life and to avoid eternal damnation, I would suggest that that formula is no more than a carbon copy of the self-serving agenda for which Christ condemned the Pharisees. Christianity for the pay-off misses point of Christianity or does it?
Always Doubtful
Fides Quarens Intellectum (Faith Seeking Understanding)
Always Doubtful,
As usual you raise interesting points.
I agree that many humans have sought perfection and oneness with God as a goals. The Bible in Matt. 5:48, 2Coth.13;11 and James 1:4, as well in other places,seems to set that goal.
It also seems clear that man is corrupt and does evil and that he seeks reconcilation, or oneness with God. Is he by nature both? This is the age old question: Is man naturally good or evil. I am not sure but it seems possible we are both. We are of this world but long to be of something more.
Seneca's quaote still sounds arrogant. There are times we may not agree with God but still should follow (obey) him. While Laurnce Kohlberg and others may agree that it is a higher level of moral development to want to agree with God, or be one with God, than just obeying Him out of fear does it really matter in the end. Isn't the Old Testament full of messages that imply or directly say we should fear God. Also, isn't it the word of God that offers everlasting life in heavan as a goal or reward. while loving God may be the better position it is not the only one that maybe successful. Therefore, both seeking harmony and fear as reason for obedience may be christian or at least biblical. It sounds a little like the difference between the Old and New testaments to me.
ld
"Nothign is more dangerous to the advancement of the kingdom of God than religion." Blanhardt
"Dependence, sorrow, repentence, a longing to change_ these are the gates to God's kingdom." Yancey p.114 in "The Jesus I Never Knew'
ld
Thanks Id. Somehow I assumed that my most recent heresy would go without response.
Let me begin by "thinking aloud" about my belief that man is fundementally good and seeking a reconnection to/and oneness with God. I know...I know that there are examples that would seeminly trash that statement but bear with me for a moment.
Certainly the argument can be made that mankind is fundemetally evil...after all look at our world. ? Has there ever been a time when mankind seems so driven by senseless, corrupt and malignent motives? Such maddness abounds as we race down a path toward self-destruction seemingly out of control!!!
? But does this condition provide irrefutable evidence that mankind is fundementally evil? I think not.
I will certainly concede the point that in a world controlled by the Dark Power, we find it increasingly challenging to seek restoration of "oneness" with God. The spark of divinity in each of us, however, has not been extinquished...it cannot be extinguished and as long as that spark remains; we are fundementally good.
As decendants of Adam, there is a direct lineage to God as our Father/Creator. For as God breathed into dust-formed Adam and he became a living soul, so are we inexorably tied to God as our Father.
While years of diminished spiritual capacity coming as a result of the sins of the fathers being visited upon the children and children's children. the wiles of the Dark Lord and the monentum of weakened resistance have built formidable barriers to accessing God, the spark remains and as long as it remains the yearning to reconnect with the Father/Creator remains.
Within the best of us and within the worst of us there are sad, heartbreaking stories of:
flawed genetics
putrid environments
abuses/atrosities
unimaginable terrors
mind-twisting circumstances
shameless neglect
unbearable sorrows
hurt
dispair
isolation and
fears that explain each of us and define our propensity to fail.
Therefore, only God will be able to sort it all out and determine how each slum-dog or prince will measure up to the the Messiah's GIFT of Forgivness and Grace.
To the point that man can be both fundementally good and fundementally evil, I don't think I can agree. In my mind, the fundemental in fundementally is tied to origin and the origin of man is God his creator.
Finally to the issue of heaven as self-serving pay-off, I believe the argument can be put into perspective when we view the motive of heaven/eternal life as being the end of the journey...the final destination...Paradise Found; RECONNECTION AND ONENESS WITH GOD. I can think of no better definetion of Heaven,
Thanks for pushing my thoughts to the next level.
Always Doubtful
Fides Quarans Intellectum
(Faith Seeking Understanding)
Excellent bloggersations going on here LD and AD.
Can't join in right now, but I can tell you that "heresies", recent or aged, will always be welcomed and confronted here. But often, not right away. LOL
Bonhoeffer's statement is so spot on!!!!
Id:
Reference is back to your blog-message of 28 June.
You state that Senaca's quote " I do not obey God, I agree with Him" still sounds arrogant. Why do you pick on poor Senaca? I think you hurt his feelings. He's really a good guy whose writings are very moral and pure. I beleive that Senaca's statement was made as an expression of his feelings of intimacy for God and his growth in God (call it sanctification).
I believe that our motive for obedience does make a difference.
Obedience out of fear is oh so Old Testament. If Christ came to reveal God to mankind, fear is totally inappropriate. Christ contradicts the portrayal of God as a God to be feared.
Obedience as a form of legalism is also allien to Christ's teaching.
However, obedience as an outgrowth of Love is the essense of Christ's teaching and is what gives Christianity its unique and distinctive appeal.
I still wrestle with reconciling the God of the Old Testament and Christ.
In my mind, at this moment, I conclude that:
1. the God of the Old Testament is NOT the same God as the God of the New Testament
2. The Great Controversy theory is correct or
3. God does learn.
I've picked my preferred belief. Which one of the 3 do you beleive or do you have an option that I haven't considered?
Alwats Doubtful
Fides Quarans Intellectum
(Faith Seeking Understanding).
Hello Always Doubtful and ld! Thanks for your comments! Yes, poor Seneca!!
I'm trying not to take the bait you've laid out there, but I find it hard not to comment right now. LOL.
However, while I don't have time tonight to give you an honorable response to your points, I will say that I've taken the bait...so I'll jump in briefly. Here goes....
1. I agree that God can learn primarily because he is Omnipotent. The term I'd like to advance and support from the Bible (even may indulge in proof texting) is that God responds to information from humans and changes his mind.
More to follow...
2. I used to agree that there were differences between God of the old and new testament, but have since changed my mind as I studied the old testamant more. I now see the same God in both.
Also, more to follow...
3. I'm glad you applied "theory" to the great controversy (aka, Paradise Lost). I can live with "theory." However, if the theory were advanced as authoritative, with claims like "I was shown" I'm afraid I'd have to challenge it as unbiblical! LOL
Perhaps, more to follow...
Well you two got me. I tried to refrain from responding due to work pressures, but tonight, Stretch got to me! LOL
Discernment is not knowing the difference between right and wrong. It is knowing the difference between right and almost right.
-- Charles Haddon Spurgeon
The Law, Jesus, and Obedience
“We are unable to do what the law commands us to do, but Jesus did it for us. And because he lives in us by his Spirit, we are enabled to do it, not from obligation, but from delight. So every command in Scripture points us to our own inadequacy . . ., magnifies the good and holy nature of God . . ., and causes us to look to Jesus as the One who forgives our disobedience and enables our obedience. In other words, the law drives us to Jesus and Jesus frees us to obey the law.”
- Bob Thune and Will Walker, The Gospel-Centered Life (World Harvest Mission, 2009), 27.
All:
Here's a recent discovery.
Often I have used a quote by the Roman Philosopher Seneca to illustrate my belief in the Sanctification process moving us beyond Obedience and toward a true oneness with God and reconciliation. When that occurs we follow God not because we must but rather because we want to...we agee with God.
My using Seneca's quote has evoked everything from a politely raised eyebrow to indignent references to Seneca, the pagan Roman philosopher and advisor to Nero, the mad emperor.
My standard response is, "Don't reject or discount the message because you don't like the messanger for even scoundrals can offer insight and wisdom."
But here's my discovery.
Recently, I've emersed myself in the 12 lecture series by Professor Bart Erhman on the History of the Bible, Making of the New Testament Canon.
In lecture one Erhman is discussing the letters attributed to Paul that did not make it into the Bible and makes specific reference ot Paul's 7 letter correspondence to the Roman Philosopher Seneca.
Wow...so Seneca had a direct connection to Paulian Christianity and therefore his quote could very well be in direct harmony with the way I use it.
I'm going to work at trying to find some source to find translations of those letters.
Always Doubtful, Faith Seeking Understanding and working to agree with God.
AD
Can't wait to see what you link up! What an interesting find!
And I suspect you've found the work to agree a lot easier!
Here's a simple game of deductive reasoning using some quotes to stimulate affirmation or spur contradiction.
Add these and let me know where your thoughts drift.
"Dogma does not mean the absence of thought but rahter the end of thought." Chesterton
plus
"If a man will begin with Certainties he will end in doubts but if he will be content to begin in doubts, he will end in certainties." Francis Bacon
plus
"There is only one religion, though there are hundreds of versions of it." George Bernard Shaw
equals ???
Always Doubtful aka Israel
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